Margin Trading Scam - A Guide - Market Discussions - EVE ...
Greedy goblin: New scam: contract margin trade scam! (and ...
Scams in EVE Online - EVE University Wiki
Getting rid of margin from the in-game market is a terrible decision and is the nail in the coffin for any market that is not Jita
For those who have not read the latest announcement = https://www.eveonline.com/article/q67fqo/broker-relations Credit where credit is due CCP, the majority of these changes are great. Getting rid of the margin skill is not one of them though. In the article, you state that you want to have the in-game markets more closely mirror real-world markets, but getting rid of Margin trading spits in the face of that ideal. Margin and the leverage it provides is the lifeblood of well functioning liquid markets. Without which any market without insanely high turn over (i.e. any market that is not Jita and even Jita to an extent) will suffer a huge blow to activity. After this change goes live the number of buy orders in all markets across the entirety of New Eden will drop by roughly **60%-74%** which is the amount of leverage provided under the current Margin Trading skill. No margin means reduced buying power, reduced buying power means reducing buy orders, reducing buy orders means reducing activity. It will no longer be feasible to put up buy orders in locations where you cannot guarantee they will be filled in a reasonable amount of time. This means any market that is not named Jita IV-IV just received its nail in the coffin. Even Jita itself will suffer a slow down as 60-70% of its buy orders will be removed when the change takes place. This is going to cause long-lasting and irreparable harm to EVE's economy and that is a blow we really can't afford to suffer considering just how important the economy is to this game. I get it, people don't like to fall victim to the margin scam. But throwing out the entire Margin system is not the answer! This is tantamount to cutting off your hand because you got a paper cut. Please CCP for the love of god consult actual economists before you make these ridiculous decisions!!! **EDIT** For those asking for the math on how this works. If I have margin trading to 5 my margin buying power is 74%. This means I can have $100 million isk in buy orders even though I only have $26 million isk in my wallet (26+74=100) If you remove margin trading then I will only be able to have $26 million isk in buy orders up and the other $74 million isk in buy orders will be canceled. Now scale this up to billions and trillions of isk. $100 billion isk in buy orders is reduced to $26 billion. $100 Trillion is reduced to $26 Trillion. Not every trader uses margin, but the biggest traders who put up the vast majority of buy orders which keeps the economy running do. This change affects a small number of players, but those players have a huge impact on the market as a whole. Fewer buy orders mean less competition which means lower bids for items. When you sell items with the immediate sale you are going to see much lower offers for your items. You will get much less reward whenever you sell loot without putting up a sell order. Furthermore, there will be large parts of space with no buy orders at all which means you will not be able to sell your items quickly without shipping them to Jita. This will dry up what remaining trade remains in the non-jita trade hubs as everyone will be forced to ship their goods to the one central market hub. And jita itself will see a significant decrease in overall buy orders which means power will be concentrated in the hands of very few traders who have the bankroll to fund all of their buy orders outright. This will prevent newer market traders from competing against the established traders.
Soooo,.... It’s been 4 weeks since CCP completely buttfucked the eve market base on the bad image that it has (0.01 isking every 5 minutes) due to the activity in the base T2 and ammunition markets. They killed the margin trading for whatever reason and introduced a ludicrously high Broker fee that taxes a handful of people and (IMO, and as far as I can tell) destroyed the aspect of this game that should have been the last thing to change. And they did it to compensate for the influx of isk from ratting. Don’t get me wrong. I do think that CHANGES were needed in some aspect of the market game. The change to 4 significant numbers is great, but doesn’t really change anything in the end... everything under 100 isk is unaffected, and it actually made the high end market (above 300mil) worse since there is more of the “minimal changes” now, whereas before people actually used to undercut one another to their preferred margin The removal of Margin Trading is something that I have absolutely no understanding for, especially when looking at the fact that they try to have a market that is as realistic as possible. It limits beginning traders even more in their possibilities than they were before. The market is now more than ever a “late game” thing to do since you need substantial capital to dump in there (before you could cover a range of 2.4b with a startling capital of 1b...... you use 600m for escrow and keep 400mil in your wallet).... And to be honest, how many people actually fell for the margin scam (I actually did, jikes)? Now to the broker fee,... the main complaint about this ordeal YES, it needed changing.... the 100isk fee from before was just a joke BUT, I think they just overdid it. I worke(d) with around 400 orders on 2 accounts. Around 300 buys in one (and I rarely got over that in the area I moved in) and about 100 sell orders. My average buy order was 328mil isk, the average sell about 460mil. I worked with items that had a moving average between 0.3 and 5 items per day, so this is my perspective, keep that in mind Before the changes, I updated my buy orders twice per day, and my sell orders 4 times (and I personally do not think that this counts as any amount of abuse of game mechanics), and I was able to make around 1.6b per day. I know that is a lot, but it it also cost me about 90 minutes in changing my orders and adjusting to fluctuations every day, and there was a lot of decision making involved. And then they changed the broker fee..... They changed it from around 40k isk to 700 MILLION every time I update my orders, and that is where I see the problem I update my orders,... and now I have to wait 3-5 days, just to break even on the fee. Changing the broker fee was not a bad decision.... it was just way to much These changes made it nearly impossible for a new guy to start trading on the market. It was hard to do before, I started with 200m isk and I had a lot of free time back then investing around 4-6h every day. Starting now, it is unlikely that you’d actually break even, especially as an alpha account. You have to spend 100% on escrow (I had to as well), you only have 17 orders, AND you have to pay nearly 2% of the items price every time you update a sell order. Now... What do you think of the changes Were they implemented correctly (some of them were justified after all) Do we have to hate on them a bit more to get CCPs attention like the wormholes do so effectively? I see the problem, because (IMO) the intention of the changes was to reduce the amount of isk in the game (as they stated). But they did it by taxing only a handful of people, namely traders and the industrialists that provide items in HS space (sadly we’ll have to wait for the economics report a few more weeks). And that part is far to small to actually speak up to CCP and get something to their attention. Now to get this to a productive conversation, just don’t spam any “just adjust” and “just get good again” comments, they are not helpful. I want to know if I’m alone with this opinion, or if there are others.
I spend 90% of my time station trading (yes there are people that enjoy that mind numbing bullshit so many of you dread). As much i would agree, with Most other station traders, that the market has some things that need to be looked at.... these patch notes for the next release are just diarrhea..... I mean I can understand the base idea for most of the changes, but you will kill station trading as a profession in eve. The market will become somewhere to invest large amount of isk and just sit on.... but that will be all that trading is good for. What you have planned is just shitting in station traders biscuits. CCP Instead of this complicated mess that kills station trading try these ideas that I came up with while taking a dump that are all better than what you have planned.
Leave margin trading in, but if your wallet goes below what would be needed to fulfill any ONE oder, it cancels that oder. Leaves some liquidity for low capital traders, but gets rid of margin trading scams ( it’s Not Hard to track highest market oders in comparison to wallet balance)
market oders can be updated as often as you want, with a 1% cost of item fee if changed within the first hour, .5% the first day, .2% the first week, and nothing if it is more than a week old. (Change the numbers a Little if you see fit, but there needs to be a way to update oders on rare items that sell one or two a month without bankrupting yourself.)
randomize the last four (or 5, or 6 depending on the price of the item) digits of sell and buy oders, so you can’t exactly 0.01 isk someone. You can either undercut them by a decent margin, or role the dice and hope you beat them at the 0.01 isk game.
That should fix all the things you seem not to like without killing an important, beloved playstyle. Thanks
Been playing the game a few weeks, decided to buy a pack to get some plex since I'm starting to like the game a little more, and bam immediately lost my 1.6 billion to a veteran scammer. Misunderstood the market and how it works. Kind of demoralizing. Oh well, guess I learned. Thought yall would enjoy laughing at my pain. :)
I feel like the flea market needs a complete overhaul, and the new presets feature needs to have some QOL improvements done to it, BAD. The flea market would be a lot better off if they separated it into two sections, trading and market. Market would have two sections as well, sellers and buyers. People can set up buy orders for items and than sellers can sell if they dont wanna wait for whatever profit margin difference it is. For trading people can list items for trade just like they do now although I think that trading is fairly redundant and is mostly used to scam people, so imo they should remove trading and add a function to be able to open a trade with someone in your friends list where you can give things to them for whatever is agreed upon. The UI is trash for the flea market, if it operated something like Eve Onlines Market and Contracts than it would be very user friendly and easy to do things.
I am a brand new player to EVE, literally 3 days old. As I'm making my way through the career missions I find myself often noticing a player selling ammo for 100,000 each. Totally absurd, but hey, their choice. But today as I go to buy some ammo I notice something odd: that offer is now in the Buyers section, still for 100,000 each. So what do I do? I sell every last bit of ammo I have on hand and jump to a nearby system to get more. I made 380 million ISK in less than an hour due to sheer luck. This game is rough and I love it, but I never expect to see that again.
so i'm pretty poor so i got about 53bil isk and maybe 80b asset and all the cap component bpos 10/20 +dread/carrier 10/20 bpos, no supers. took a few years. Did trading in dodixie for a few years etc. Should have probably been doing citadel contract scams, from what i saw those were golden gooses. so i'm wondering, how to people break into that space rich level eve? like those dudes flying avatars swimming in cash? what's the secret? sure you've got rorq mining and super ratting, but what's the big hustle if you got capital? i know patch speculation can be pretty wild from my experience. Tried to collect hangers full of vedmak bpc's in hopes they'd balloon because of the new invention and that backfired. My last good speculation was odyssey expansion 2013. But is it seeding null with a jf maybe? working margins really hard with reactions? BPO reinvestment? plex margins? what's the big picture? i tried doing dread ammo but that dried up in February if you're space rich, how did you do it? the NC guy i know that has AT ships and faction carriers just uses his credit card. But that renting and extorting people or your credit card surely can't be the only ways to get rich right? there has to be some trade crafts that exist?
I was just wondering if anyone would be willing to teach me how to scam and whatnot. I know this is an odd question but have always been interested and I am sure this will get flamed to death and downvoted, but I am very curious as to if anyone would be willing to!
Title, Goddamnit. I started playing the game a couple months ago but haven't really done much except for sit in jita and do industry. This has allowed me to rack up a decent amount of isk, so i decided to try to use some of it for something else, namely trading. So as I look through items i see. "Oh! someone is selling this shitty officer armor mod for 3.5b in jita and someone else is buying it for 5b in amarr? Thats a steal!" Now, it was always in the back of my mind that it could be a scam, some guy in control of both the buy and sell orders. But i figured hey, these have both been up for days. Even if it is a scam who says the guy is even logged on right now? Plus its only 9 jumps...I can do that real quick, right? Wrong. I scouted both stations in a shuttle, making sure the buy and sell orders were still there. Once i got back to jita i knew i had to be fast. I hopped in my speed fit wreathe and was ready to go. Bought the armor mod, threw it in my ship, and off I went. I was actually making pretty decent time, clicking the shit out of the jump icons at each gate and praying that my ship didn't bug out or the servers randomly decide to die. I finally get there. "Oh shit oh shit" i keep saying as i right click the mod, view market details, wait what seems like an eternity for the information to pop up aaaand..... ITS STILL THERE. YES! I WIN! Throw it in my item bay, right click it, sell for the buy order price, then the market window flashes and refreshes and i see the blue tint of my sell order up, with the buy order nowhere to be found. WHAT?! I yell and my headset goes flying. I wasn't fast enough. You beat me eve. I'm going back to my assembly lines. TLDR; Newbro gets scammed 3.5b. Bah humbug. I'm going back to my assembly lines.
Question for station traders and traders in general.
Hi there, a friend of mine and me are working on a new station trading website. It will show you every margin of each item and you can sort them all for a brief overview. My question is, whether you guys have a general interest in such tool. If there´s some interest, we´ll include many more features. Of course, you can tell us some features, you want us to inplement. Regards, Mcalti
Google Doc - https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IuG81zLze3UOmBD4bBytzBGaR8gIurv_5ZMVGddoKps/edit?usp=sharing Introduction I normally try to keep posts like this as short as possible since personally I skip past huge walls of text when I see them; however, honestly, I’m not sure if I can fully illustrate my point and the points of many that are going on deaf ear without fully qualifying with how I’ve been there, done it, and have an educated opinion on all realms of EVE Online. I have labeled each section so feel free to skip to the parts that interest you or read all for the full point I’m intending to make. I apologize in advance if any specific part appears to be drawn out or that I’m trying to make myself seem important or arrogant or (?). Basically, my intent on this is to go as in-depth as possible to add legitimacy in the fact that I have been around and have a more vested interest in EVE than your common player. Background Leading Up to Playing I heard of EVE a few times in passing as the game that made your wife divorce you from a Best Buy review and thought that was humorous. Had a few coworkers at my job that played EVE, but I was so into console gaming at the time I didn’t have much of a setup or interest into getting into PC gaming. Time went on, needed a beefier PC for my undergrad/grad work (or at least that’s the excuse I used) so started considering PC games and of course space has always been cool as fuck to me and the general open-ended nature of EVE intrigued me. One of my current colleagues also played EVE so I figured what the hell, I’ll give it a go. This was in October of 2013. Starting EVE Online The advice I was told was to start missioning as soon as possible, Caldari is a great race since you can do missiles without worrying about tracking and other factors, and to be very wary of joining a corporation in EVE as scams are very prevalent. I tried the tutorial missions, quickly lost interest and thought this was a boring as fuck game as weird things seemed incredibly clunky to me. I was a little confused on how to get around to where I needed to go and how to get to the objectives in the mission. After about an hour or two I logged out of EVE, unsure if I’d ever play it again. The next day my coworker again told me to give it another try and gave a few more pointers with regards to how sec status works. I gave it another try and decided to mine in a venture to make some ISK to buy a few mods and hopefully a better ship since it seemed the best way to get my first few million. As I got more comfortable with maneuvering around EVE, I started venturing throughout high sec a bit more and continued to work towards my first ship (I think a caracal?) but I was also confused because I wanted to make more ISK in mining since missioning seemed a far goal. My friend at work threw me a bone and bought me my first caracal so I opted to go that route since he would tell me how much he made running L3 and L4 missions. I got really into running missions for a bit, lost my first caracal and joined my friends corp. I was pissed that I lost it but understood that is how EVE works. Luckily someone threw me a bone in rookie chat and gave me 50 million to buy another caracal and said that he ganks orcas and to hang in there. It seemed from there that EVE had more to it than my friend really knew. I joined my first corp nonrelated to my friend at work… it instantly got wardec’d within a day of joining so I thought my friend was probably right about avoiding corps and dropped corp again. Kept doing a little more research on EVE and found a blog from Chessur that really enthralled me towards the world of PvP and thought how cool that would be. http://evestealthbomber.blogspot.com/ is the reference to that and if I were to attribute anything to getting into PvP and actually playing EVE, it’d be from Chessur and this blog. The more I read, the more I wanted it. I joined another corp that was based in high-sec but had dreams of going to nullsec or live in a low end WH. All of this sounded really cool to me. I kept reading more and more into fits of PvP from battleclinic and read Chessur’s blog like it was the bible of how to PvP. BOOM, another war dec hit. The corp didn’t know how to respond since we were mostly all carebears in highsec with very few with actual PvP experience (well the CEO and a few other guys claimed to have some but I have doubts with what I currently know). There was a lot of discussions on what to do next. We lost a few ships from them… it seemed like there were 2-4 guys in T3s that would continually kill our guys in our mission ships. This is where I decided to make my stand and there was enough unrest in my corp to back me. Everyone was frustrated and it seemed like they were tired of getting bullied as well. Not knowing anything about PvP, I tried my best to educate people from what I read and what I saw. We all got in our biggest ships (mine at the time was a drake, others had more ISK so brought T1 battleships. We lost a few fights in the beginning but we could tell we were getting closer at killing what seemed like an unkillable enemy. Eventually, we won a fight with them https://zkillboard.com/b96405/ and our guys were fucking stoked. We started getting less pressure from them and got a lot of confidence until finally they fucked off altogether. Shortly after this we decided we needed to push forward as a corp to null. We got an offer from an alliance living in Stain. They were Vanguard (https://zkillboard.com/alliance/555959926/). They said that they were familiar with newer groups, wanted to give us a try, and they had a seeded market and they loved to help newbros. We decided to go and give it a shot… what a huge plunge. At this time carriers could still jump 15LY and there weren’t as many chokepoints. Logistics was handled by the alliance leader and a few of the guys in corp that had a carrier. We got out to Stain and I loved it. We were fighting the Polish group of Coven and they were our sworn enemy. In EUTZ, we’d get our shit pushed in but in USTZ we held our own. There was a brother alliance that worked with us that had more experienced PvPers in it and were more “elite.” They needed our numbers and honestly, we needed their FCs to fight Coven. I really enjoyed the guys in this small alliance and saw that they were clearly superior to the majority of the current alliance I was in. The corp I was in was dwindling in numbers and I was tired of feeling like I was one of the few joining in PvP fleets so I began to consider a new home. One of the corps in my current alliance (Homicidal Teddy Bears) prided themselves as being a PvP corp with an industrial backbone. They seemed the most like-minded to me so I joined them to learn and be with a better group of peers. This is where things continued to get interesting for me – there was a little drama between the “elite” alliance we were working with and our alliance and it seemed to me more and more that I was in line with their views instead of my own alliance. It was around this time that I was learning from their FCs on how to FC and realizing that my own alliance was pretty bad. Eventually, I decided to swap to their alliance but I think that might have had some sort of impact on the current alliance I was in as the exec rarely FC’d and I was one of the only ones that did. He and I didn’t exactly see eye to eye because I strongly disliked how he babied the guys in fleets and didn’t foster them to get better. I decided to go to the new group and see how it went. I really loved this new alliance but our numbers were low (5-15 actual members) and my SP was not skilled into what they enjoyed flying. It was hindering my ability to FC and my ability to grow so I started looking more and more into buying a toon off the bazar. I found a toon (Gremk) for around 5BN that seemed exactly what I wanted… skilled specifically into Gal/Min and a good base for what I wanted to do. I borrow some ISK from one of my new friends in my new alliance and off I went with the new character. At this time, I was belt ratting in Stain and running L4s in Stain for ISK. I was also doing margin trading in a hub in high sec buying low and selling high. Life was good. My new exec and main FC of the alliance I was in was getting more and more on edge. Frustrated with the numbers we had, lack of recruiting, and newly developed hatred of the alliance I came from he decided we would go to lowsec to do faction warfare instead. It would get us closer to PvP with the numbers we could field and he thought it’d be a lot of fun. And so we did – we moved there and that’s when I began learning how to solo PvP… but the corp suffered a lot and our leader got more and more angry until he eventually quit EVE for a bit. The co-leader decided that we needed to go back to null and some old friends in East India Trading Co so we decided to get out of lowsec and back into making ISK while PvP’ing. Well, some drama happened and within the first week it became Gentlemen’s Club. We brought with us one of the corps that was originally in our alliance (Abandoned ships) that got kicked due to a stupid loss… then they ended up joining Vanguard (the alliance I was originally from). A few of us kept in good contact so they decided to go with us to Gentlemen’s Club. Within Gclub I made my ISK from continuing to margin trade, seed ships to alliance via WHs and eventually JF services, and some nullsec ratting/ded sites. Even though some of us were in the exec corp and the rest was in TRIF, we all felt like we were a part of the same group. With time, we realized that this was not the alliance we were looking but as a corp we were still split on what we wanted to do. I pushed to get out of nullsec and go back to lowsec… I liked not having structure grinds in RLML Cerberus and the general incompetency that we found with a lot of the members in GClub. I started reaching out to a few groups (Overload Everything and Shadow Cartel) but I felt that we had too many guys in corp that were stuck to null so I wanted a way out. It was around this time that GClub deployed with Black Legion… they seemed like the group that was exactly what I was looking for. I applied to them and was accepted in even without a cap toon or great SP – I got lucky with one of the guys who vouched me in if I’m being honest. To make ISK here, I continued seeding contracts to alliance, seeding where we staged from, and running L4s Gurista missions. After joining I shortly realized this was exactly the sort of shit I was wanting. I did a few fleets with Elo FC’ing and it was fucking amazing. We mainly danced around Goons with tengus and used a lot of tactics with bubbles, slippery petes, etc that I thought was fucking awesome. Watching Elo FC was something truly amazing to me, his style was something I’ve never seen before and everyone in his alliance was intensely loyal to him. Boom, Phoebe hit. I was in the fleet that went from the north (Venal iirc) and gated all the way down to Catch to kill the PL that brave had bubbled. This fleet lasted 8 fucking hours. I saw some of the writing on the wall after a few months. Elo announced we were going to fight Russians and being nearly a 100% USTZ alliance with mostly one FC I felt like this was a horrible idea. I also was pretty pissed at how long fleets were now that Phoebe hit and knew I couldn’t commit to fucking 8 hour fleets. While this was happening, the corp I used to be in (TRIF) had finally listened – they went to Shadow Cartel and were really enjoying themselves. I felt like this group was my home and always felt more like a number in Black Legion rather than a critical part. I left Black Legion to rejoin TRIF… Immediately, I fucking loved it. Shadow Cartel was everything I wanted… High end doctrines, high end tactics, and a fuckton of instant content. There was minimal structure timers and mostly just pure PvP. I could tell TRIF was having a little difficulty fitting into SC since we had a lot of guys that were still fixated on the nullbear life and some core PvPers. We also didn’t have much in the way of FCs anymore and I could tell there was a chance that TRIF wouldn’t have lasted in Shadow Cartel. So again, I stepped up and decided I will FC for both TRIF and SC. By this point I had already seen a good bit of tactics and even though I made some stupid mistakes I could do better than most and I usually had pretty good awareness. To make ISK, I tried several things – I did FW missions on an alt in a bomber, L4 guristas missions in a tengu, L4 SoE missions, semi AFK mining in highsec in a hulk with orca boosts (lol), and finally L5s. Time went on, I FC’d more and TRIF grew. I started a different culture in TRIF – one that the previous exec had – expecting nothing less than perfection while still having a good time. We didn’t care if you welped a ship as long as you did everything you could and weren’t an idiot. TRIF started losing the indy side but we picked up members from some of the alliance we used to be in and friend along the way. We learned on how to make ISK in lowsec and the fun that was had in not bashing structures but 100% focusing on killing ships. I’ll skip a lot of the details but eventually it ended up with myself and a few others that had been in from the beginning helping run a lot of the USTZ in Shadow and continuing to build it in the vision I had – capital projection, subcap superiority. I was fortunate enough to get on an EU heavy AT team with SC and learned a ton from the amazing AT FC that Asakura was… it was honestly the most fun I’d ever had in EVE. We finished 6th and I knew I would want to continue the next year. Meanwhile, TRIF started implementing higher standards within corp where we only accepted members that could fly every subcap in the game with cap alt mandatory. Time went on, we all had similar interests, and we really enjoyed supecapital fights. We pushed getting supers, pushed getting cap alts, and really we pushed whatever I felt was the strongest force in the game. Shadow Cartel fought in the biggest lowsec wars (Placid war vs Snuff), some of the wars with DHSJ, DT collapsing, etc etc. I was there through all of it. Lowsec became the place to be – it was the only place that was getting consistent, huge fights and content. Each side continued to build to win and fight the other. It finally gave some of the local groups power to fight each other. AT time came around and the previous capt had quit EVE after the last tourney. Bagger’s play time had gone down tremendously but I still had the strong desire to do AT again but there was one big problem… the previous year was all EUTZ and I had no way to run practices in EU since I worked 8-5 in the US. I started to build a new team based in USTZ and I think I was one of the few that had actual experience and was privy to the theory crafting that went into the previous AT. We had some issues getting practice partners since we were a USTZ team but eventually we got a few. There was a lot of initial obstacles but as a team we grew stronger and stronger throughout the practice season… By the time AT was here we were running toe to toe with the strongest of our practice partners and winning every match against our other practices partners consistently. Now AT time came… the first match we had a guy burn out his webs in a bhaal… the main ship that had our control. We lost the match by a 5 second margin… 0-1. The next match we had a guy burn in within the first minute of the match right into a bhaal ball when we were a heavy control team… he lost a sleipnir right off the bat without repping and there went a huge chunk of DPS and links. We also lost this match by less than a 5 second margin. 0-2 game over. This was a big hit for me from the time I invested into this… but shit happens and life goes on. I focused a lot on TQ FC’ing now and running USTZ and assisting running most of SC. We had a lot of cool cap fights and super fights with DHSJ, Snuff, and other groups. Time went on and more players got tired of the burden of running an alliance and the Exec then (Paquito) left to NC. Since I was already co-running the alliance I decided to step up and run the alliance. EUTZ took a big hit but that’s when SC really became a USTZ alliance. All timers were shifting to USTZ, EUTZ was growing lighter, and our enemies were getting stronger in EUTZ. Meanwhile, we grew so big in USTZ from gaining some of the corps from collapsed allies that there was a TZ tanked war. We couldn’t fight them in EUTZ, they couldn’t fight us in USTZ. I started working with NC. more to try to balance out the disparity in EU, but then that tipped the numbers too much. Basically, it was a constant battle of getting the perfect fight – trying to get sides evened out and fighting with nearly the same tactics. The fights got more and more stale and it started to become more of a way to find fights and keep fights going than winning or losing. My goals shifted to “how can I keep the alliances I’m fighting alive to get more content.” More time went on and AT time was around again. I wanted to run it but knew I couldn’t handle the burden that running the AT put on me – especially with how the previous year ended. One of the guys that had more experience and know-how decided to take it by the horns and give it a go… the main problem was that he lived in EU for a nearly 100% US team. Time went on and we did pretty well in practices but had a lot more focus than the previous year. The main problem we had was having the amount of practices needed with how busy everyone’s schedule was on the team. It was a constant struggle with many pings to get people on and making sure we had the people to commit. I was really hit or miss with attempting to run alliance, juggle IRL, and helping play a large role in AT. It drove me away from the game as it 100% felt like a second (or third even) job. Due to work, I couldn’t attend the first match of our feeder tourney – and we lost. Both the capt and myself knew we couldn’t handle another disappointment like the previous year. I was able to make the second day and our team was running on all cylinders again – and won all three matches that day to fight through the feeder rounds. More practices happened… more stress on IRL… more stress on the alliance from me not being able to commit to TQ, AT, and IRL. AT started – we won our first match then made some errors and lost to NC. Won a few more matches then lost to TEST. I can honestly say it was a great experience. I learned a lot from it yet again but again it came so close to killing the careful balance of my personal life and Shadow Cartel took a huge hit from it as far as TQ content. Thankfully, there was another FC to step up and help but it got a lot harder when he was away for bits at a time. While all this is happening – things like horrible citadel timers, active moon mining, and other big changes continued to make lowsec as a powerhouse nearly impossible. Everything in EVE just felt like a massive time sink – to move to take part in a war meant killing a day of time each way then the content there would always dry up, AT required endless practice, all timers turned into TZ wars, and basically nothing seemed like much reward for the endless amount of effort that leadership would have to invest. The main guys running moons quit EVE, most of the FCs IRL were getting busier, and the amount of time we were actually enjoying the game became more and more rare. Eventually, running the entirety of Shadow Cartel fell on TRIF’s shoulders with a little help from some of the other leaders. This was okay for a bit but eventually with the demands of our careers and lives it was impossible to run. It was time for Shadow Cartel to have a drastic change and that wouldn’t happen without TRIF leaving alliance. Now their story will continue and personally I don’t feel like Shadow Cartel will die from it - just change their focus. So here we are today – we decided to leave Shadow Cartel and are still figuring out the next steps. TL;DR of What I’ve Done Level 1-5 missions in high sec, low sec, and null sec Mining in high sec in a venture, retriever, procurer, hulk with orca links NPC Belt Ratting SOV Anoms Extensive Solo PvP FC’d small gang, mid, and large fleet in high sec, low sec, and null sec. FC’d and killed subcap, capital, and supercapital fleets FC’d and Capt in the alliance tournament CEO of both a corp (TRIF) and alliance (Shadow Cartel) Theory-crafted for both AT and TQ for all comps that SC ran in my time there (By no means am I saying I was the only one doing TQ fits but I was a major player if not the biggest player in the direction of doctrines) My Actual Opinion of What CCP Needs to Focus EVE On I apologize if the story was long and there are probably a lot of parts I’ve missed including or bored you to death on but I felt it somewhat necessary to preface my opinion and illustrate the type of player that I am. I’ll be hitting a lot of different areas in the game with this – keep in mind this is all opinion and my personal vision. With nearly all of the changes lately, they’ve had too much time to fester with the issues that are present. I’ll go into more depth on specifics but ultimately each different aspect of the game that has been released: jump fatigue, citadels, t3d changes, capital changes, rorqual changes, etc… all of them were released and only minor tweaks to them with time when there have been GLARING issues with them. I feel like most patches have been fixing things that should have been done and pleasing the player base with QOL changes that are overall pretty minor while leaving some of the bigger issues present. The common trend with all changes are in the opposite direction of where EVE should be going – everything is become much more of a time sink with extremely localized content that quickly grows stale. There needs to be more of an emphasis on community from day one. Push outside places like Reddit and focus on getting new players into the community. The community is 100% what drives this game. Give select players a free sub for all their accounts or 1 account to help run this even. Make a huge effort on retaining and educating new players to how complex EVE is in general. Make PvE more engaging – make it enjoyable and unpredictable. Nearly every method of making ISK currently in EVE is stale and is exclusively done to make ISK for shinier ships or more PvP. Make it to where people actually enjoy making the ISK and that it doesn’t feel like such a grind. Sure short term players are going to moan because their ISK/hr goes down – but make it to where when you are making ISK you are actually enjoying the game. Imo there should be a complete rework ON ALL PVE. Make alliance management MUCH easier. Stop letting every alliance make these special snowflake tools for auth services, mobile apps, moon mining, reactions etc. Don’t get me wrong – custom tools can exist but give ALL alliance a base set of tools that are run by CCP and don’t leave it out to dry like you have the mobile app you pushed out. Running an alliance shouldn’t take hosting your own servers for auth tools, creating a tool to manage srp, carefully managing roles since there is such a shitty audit system, and honestly the list goes on and on. The less that the content creators, admin, and management of alliance have to focus on that involves actual admin, the more the alliance can benefit from their leadership being able to spend more time with the alliance itself. Really focus on tournament style game play. Logi bro did fucking wonders with thunderdome and the direction that all of that was headed. Personally, I was fucking shocked and angry when I heard that he was let go. You need to cater to the players that love this sort of game play with the tools needed and drive a tourney sector of EVE – tons of gamers love this sort of game play. There’s a lot of different options with this and I think most heavily depend on Thunderdome - but if done properly it can add a lot of available content to EVE without negatively impacting TQ content. Stop wasting so much time and money on developing games like dust and Valkyrie. Put this dev time into continuing to make EVE a game that is unmatched and that will never be quit. Focus on getting players into the action faster – I don’t care what the means is but stop making it so fucking difficult to get to hot zones where action is going on. While I get that Phoebe had a lot of benefits so everyone didn’t get instantly blobbed – the previous generation of EVE was such an exciting game play in theory. It was unforgiving and people could get a ping then travel to exactly where the fight was going on and move ops months that kill a day of time each way weren’t a thing. You didn’t do something fun with caps just to sit and wait for an hour plus… There wasn’t hours of midpointing, staging caps, etc etc that is required now to have any sort of continued sustainable content. Final TL;DR Make PvE more engaging, give more tools to all alliances to manage their alliance easier, make the community around EVE much more visible for new players, be more responsive to the community and the errors of the material you release, and make EVE much less of a time sink to achieve goals.
Have run into this recently: Pull into Jita or other trade hub and use eve-central or eve-marketdata to look for trade deals to various regions. Up pops an item that is relatively cheap in Jita, but there are way high buy and sell orders all over- in 20-30 systems. Aspiring trader (who shall remain nameless...) thinks "Jackpot!" and buys worthless item, such as Dread Gurista Copper Tags (anyone need these? I might have some. Only 10,000ISK!) and proceeds to haul them to, say, Rens. Upon arrival, there is NO buy order, and said trader is stuck having shelled out 30 million ISK for worthless tags. What this seems to be: A person with a bunch of alts, or a group sets up some high sell orders and some high margin buys in numerous systems, then uploads the market scan via evemon. At the same time, they put a worthless item on sale in Jita for a few thousand ISK (which translates to a few thousand percent profit). They sit back and wait until eve-central shows the buy orders, then cancel their orders. Noob trader buys up the entire stock in Jita thinking he will make a killing, and the sweet, sweet tears flow. The giveaway: This is identifiable in two ways. One is that all the buy/sell orders on eve-central are the same time or nearly so (i.e. no 1,6,8,24 hours old spread of orders like normal). The other is to check the order history and you can see the item has been essentially worthless for a year. I'm not sure this is "new" but I havent run into any mention of it on the usual websites. It just seems to be a variation of the margin trading scam that leverages the power of eve-central to suck the marks in. EDIT: Thanks for the replies. Looks like this is not a "new" scam, and is probably being done by uploading bogus data to Eve-central or eve-marketdata rather than having a bunch of alts. Hopefully people will upvote this thread so more people can be aware of the scam, as I have not seen it blogged about on any of the major EvE blogs.
POLARIS Project; works with the state to criminalize voluntary sex workers, forces sex workers into low-paid garment manufacturing, engages in forced institutionalization of “rescued” sex workers, & does not compensate their interns... MANNA Justice; rescue organization that considers all sex work to be coerced, lies about the sex industry, sex trafficking statistics, lacks transparency, runs paid ‘mission trips’ and linked to the Polaris Project. Project ROSE; works with the State to criminalize sex workers and marginalized women in general under the guise of human trafficking Punjammies/the International Princess Projectchanged their name toSudara; forces sex workers into low-paid garment manufacturing via supporting raid and rescue operations OUR Rescue; run by the Mormon Church, uses ex navy seals to go ‘undercover’ in brothels and arrest sex workers The Cupcake Girls; patronizing christian org who think that giving strippers cupcakes is somehow activism, refuses to act upon requests for material assistance or work with marginalized sex workers Walk Free Foundation; white savior bullshit, tax dodge for mining billionaire Andrew ‘Twiggy’ Forrest Project Respect; Australian SWERF org that has attempted to shut down sex worker activist groups by calling them ‘pimp lobbies’, pushes for criminalization and equates voluntary sex work with trafficking International Justice Mission; white savoir bullshit, uses fake statistics about sex work and sex trafficking, push for the criminalization of and statist violence against sex workers Not For Sale; fake statistics about sex work and sex trafficking, white savior bullshit, supports criminalization of and statist violence against sex workers, forces people out of sex work into low-paid jobs via supporting criminalization Coalition Against Trafficking in Women; rescue org that pushes for the criminalization of sex workers, supports the belief that “all sex work is violence against women” and “women can’t consent to paid sexual labor”, uses false statistics about sex workers, and more Eve’s Angels; organization in the U.S. that comes into sex workers workplaces and tries to rescue them, is against the sex industry and sex workers entirely while claiming to “rescue” women in the sex industry Somaly Mam Foundation; now defunct, run by disgraced anti trafficking advocate Somaly Mam who fabricated her own experiences with forced sex labor and coerced other girls and women into doing the same Pink Cross; right-wing extremist Christian org run by Shelley Lubben, who claims to have extensive experience in the industry but is very likely lying. Shelley seeks out performers and convinces them to fabricate horror stories about the industry in exchange for financial security which she then never provides, is essentially a scam artist GEM Girls; founded by someone claiming to be an “exited prostitute”, considers all sex work to be violence against women Ruhama; a rescue org in Ireland that has successfully pushed for the criminalization of sex workers, views all sex work as violence against while having been involved in the Magdalene Laundries Agape International affiliated with the International Justice Mission, works with the State (such as police), engages in raid-and-rescue [x] Half the Sky Movement; affiliated with the Polaris Project and Gem’s Girls, says that “it’s hard to tell whether sex workers are voluntary or involuntary” , says “three million girls are enslaved in the sex trade” and often makes no distinction between sex slavery and the sex industry in general, sells clothing and jewelry made by ‘rescued’ women and girls (this is often an indicator that women are being forced out of voluntary sex work and into low paid garment manufacturing). Founded by Nicholas Kristoff, who advocates for sweatshop labor. [x] [x] [x] [x] White Ribbon; varies between countries so we suggest contacting the one in your country. The Australian White Ribbon has ‘no formalized position’ but uses anti-sex worker language in their materials. White Ribbon UK considers all sex work to be violence against women and Scotland has criminalized sex work in partnership with WR. the U.S. White Ribbon is also openly misogynist. Breaking Free; views all sex work as violence against women and is openly seeking to force sex workers out of our jobs by shutting down the industry Hope for Justice; anti sex worker group that labels sex workers rights as “men’s rights”, advocates for forcing all workers out of the sex industry. Destiny Rescue: openly Christian NGO founded by a white man and run exclusively by white board members while working in exploited nations such as Thailand and Cambodia, focuses exclusively on sex trafficking even though the majority of human trafficking is in domestic labor, conflates voluntary sex work with sex trafficking and slavery SISHA; massively corrupt tax dodge, now defunct Source:sexworkinfo
Industrialist to vigilante. How I created content.
I was a huge fan of the first few years of Star Wars Galaxies, but after it was patched to death, nothing else really filled that space. It always fascinated me and made me long for another game where your actions had consequences and the economy was a living, breathing entity. There were other MMOs, but in the end they felt empty and static. I missed the rush of having to look over your shoulder as you made your way through the world because a bounty hunter could jump out from anywhere, hellbent on placing your head on a stake and cashing in. I started playing EVE 4 years ago off and on for a month at a time, subscribing for a month every time some scam or war hit the mainstream media. I loved it every time I logged in. I started mining as so many do. In my case it was an attempt at regaining the glory of SWG where I played a very successful armor smith. I would again become an industrial mogul! In the end I never stuck around for more than a month. Mostly due to the fact I never applied to a corp and treated it as a single player game I think. It never left my thoughts though. Always lurking at the back of my mind that I was missing out on something. A year ago that changed. I'm not sure what media story it was this time, but I found myself once again entering my credit card details and activating my account. I got into a great new player friendly corp and have been subscribed ever since, although the corp has changed. Time goes by, and much as in SWG, as the ISK piles up doing trading and manufacturing, you start to look for other things to do, things to spend your earnings on, something exciting. In SWG you tried to unlock a Jedi, in EVE you start an alt. My alt was going to be a combat pilot. No pussyfooting around Jita with market orders, no hauling this or that, calculating profit margins or speculating on the price of nano transistors. I wanted guns, missiles and spaceships that went BOOM! on my screen. Maybe even in time take part in the happenings in null sec that has made EVE famous. I made my alt and applied to one of the large new player friendly PvP corps. I had a blast, sucking in all the combat knowledge that had passed me by sitting in Jita for 6 months. Slowly but surely I was gaining an understanding for all the mechanics involved. I didn't play my alt that much the first few months, preferring to wait until he was ready to proficiently use something bigger than a frigate. Core Competency Standard anyone? When I did play though I was loving the tactics, comms, the anticipation and especially when the other guy went BOOM! I also gained a healthy respect for FCs and how they make a plan come together. I love it when a plan comes together. You read this far? Well here comes the point. A friend of mine told me he had been carrying to much cargo in his hauler the other day and a Tornado had popped him as he approached a gate. He wasn't angry at anyone but himself for trying to haul a small fortune through space, but it is frustrating, I've been ganked myself a few times and could empathize. There was a difference this time though. I thought "I can get revenge"! 2 things had changed since I got ganked myself almost a year earlier. I had an understanding of the Kill Rights system and I had my now deadly alt. By this time he was quite proficient in anything up to battle cruiser and skilled in a wide variety of weapons. Excitement grew in me as I set out to, for the first time really, create my own content that would directly affect another. One of us would have their Internet spaceship turned to pixels of space dust, I was sure of it. My plan was initially simple. Locate the Tornado pilot who had suicide ganked my friend, roll up to him in a superior ship and hope his skills didn't overcome my theoretical advantage. I started playing the meta game, crawling through kill boards looking at his records. There was a pattern. The ship type he used and the systems he operated in repeated themselves. I just needed to find out about his fitting so I could tell what kind of numbers I would have to beat. A suicide gank does not however generate a loss mail I quickly learned. Thankfully though, a month or two ago, someone in a Velator got a shot off on him as he was being concorded after a gank. I got my look at his fit and hoped he hadn't changed it much since. I was very happy when I saw, unsurprisingly, that his Tornado was tank free. I had suspected as much, but now I knew. Now to find him. He was already in my contacts and I had added him to my watch list, so I knew he was online. I had heard of locator agents, but never used them. Some quick reading and I understood that my mains Industrialist research partners, with which I have a very good relationship, at the Lai Dai Corporation would come in handy. A quick visit to their agent and 10 minutes later I had a location. Now for the tricky bit. How to ensure the kill. I was sure I could just jump around the gates in the system he was in and I'd see him, but judging from his fit he would be 70km or so off gate. If I burned to him from the gate he would know something was up. I decided I'd use both my characters. I'd take my Industrialist out in a cloaky frigate, sneak up to him, and use him as a warp in for my lethal alter ego to land right on top of him. The last thing that had to be done was to decide with which blunt instrument I would bludgeon this sneaky sniper with. Now in EVE, as far as blunt instruments go, a Thorax with blasters seemed to fit the bill. Short range, high damage, dead sniper. His 1400mm artillery wouldn't stand a chance at hitting me while my blasters chewed through his paper thin hull. I had my plan and was getting very excited. I slept on it for a night. Then it was time. Locator agent,check. Characters in place, check. Roam gates to pinpoint sniper...eh...wtf. My sniper was nowhere to be found. Not docked up, not on grid of any gates. I hadn't anticipated this at all. Dscan. I had used Dscan a little before in some PvP fleets and when searching for a free moon to put up a POS and thought maybe it could help me again. The system I was in wasn't that much bigger than Dscans range, so there was hope. I fired up a scan and immediately it returned a hit for a Tornado. I was so happy! It didn't have to be him, but I had something to go on. It took me 10-15 minutes, using range and the angle of the scan I narrowed down the position. He was sitting off grid from one of the gates. I wasn't sure on how far, but a Tornado sitting still in a safe spot off a gate where I knew he had killed several targets. It had to be him! I needed a new plan of attack. I would have to scan him down to find him and my industrialist doesn't scan anything except market prices and the occasional exotic dancer. He was out of the picture then. It would be a one man job. My gung-ho alter ego hadn't actually scanned down anyone either before, but I figured it couldn't be that much different from scanning anomalies and I've done plenty of that. Looking at the blunt instrument I was spinning around in my hangar I also came to the conclusion I would need to ship up. I could not fit a scanner, tank and gank on a cruiser. A went to a trusty old friend, the Drake. Plenty of room for gank, I slapped on a little tank and with some tweaks I fit my new super shiny sniper finder. For good measure I even fit a tracking disruptor with a tracking speed script. I wasn't leaving anything to chance. I undocked knowing that this was it. My plan, my content, HIS content was about to happen. I felt my pulse start to quicken as I launched my probes. I had been very close to him earlier so it didn't take long at all until I saw a Tornado identified in my scanner. I quickly pulled my drones in hoping he wasn't paying enough attention so they could spook him. My pulse was going pretty fast now. Fast enough that I could feel my heartbeat. I didn't want to screw this up, I have a good plan dammit. I made a mental checklist of what to do in the next 30 seconds to make sure I hadn't forgotten anything and took a deep breath. I made sure my tank was active and hit "Warp to". While I was in warp I went through my mental checklist again. "I'm good, I'm good" I told myself. As I landed I could see my target, identified by a color icon due to standings I knew it was him even before I could read his name. My heart was pounding extremely hard now, it flashed through my mind that this is insane! It is a video game! That thought quickly disappeared though as the reality of the situation was unfolding on my screen and his. My hands now almost mechanically went through the mental checklist. Start locking target. Activate Kill Rights. My scram, web and target disruptor all lit up as soon as I had him locked. I set my Drake to orbit at very close range and activated my afterburner to make me even harder to hit with those massive guns of his. Then I launched my first volley of missiles. Even though everything had gone to plan so far, I wasn't comfortable until I saw them slam into his ship to see what kind of damage they did. BOOM! A giant portion of his shields were vaporized instantly as I launched my drones. I let out an audible gasp realizing I had held my breath since I landed on grid and that this was going exactly as planned. Only as he was halfway into armor did I even see a yellow box. A single artillery volley was shot at me, or rather in my general direction, like a futile Hail Mary at the end of a football game with the accuracy of a V1 missile. A few seconds later revenge had been served. Tornado guts littered the field. I had an idea. I made a plan. I adapted. I made content. I had fun! 7o EDIT: Short epilogue in comments, scroll down.
My Experiences as a New Player using Eve as a Sim Tycoon Game [Manufacturing-PI-Trading]
Edit: Don't forget to check out the comments on these posts, some other traders left some good advice. So a little background, I've been playing for 23 days so far. I started after Christmas but before New Year's after I spent the previous week getting my thief up to 80 in GW2 and getting exotics. I got bored of grinding the dungeons there and while WvW was fun it just seemed so unorganized. I decided to actually try the 14 day trial on Eve again, with the goal of making an isk/time(effort) sustainable character within 30 days (goal is to plex, but I might not since $15/mo is trivial for this amount of enjoyment). So more or less it's been 3 weeks now, and jEveAssets lists my Net Worth to be about 1.4B but I estimate I can reliable recover 1-1.2B of that if I were to liquidate everything right now instead of waiting for fair market value. So at this point I'm going to break down my rapid progression from manufacturer to Planetary Industrialist to Hub-Hub Trader and then to Station Trader in a week to week basis. Week 1
What I did: Manufacturing/ some PI near the end of the week/ a little trading
Est Profits: ~200m Manufacturing/ ~20m PI
Time Spent (mostly doing what): Reading Eve Science and Industry Forums back 20 pages, misc tutorials/blogs linked there, hauling goods from jita to my manufacturing system (until I learned of buy orders).
Tools I used: Eve IPH, Invictra Atreides (guide to PI, mainly the spreadsheet), This Industrialist Blog (mostly for my original background information on industry), Evewiki and eve university for general knowledge
Specifically:I used EveIPH and sorted originally by IPH*SVR to find the items with the highest returns that were guaranteed to sell at least until the market got saturated. On that issue for a single product I never made more than what one line could produce in 1/4-1/2 a day. Mining Laser Upgrade I and Scordite Mining Crystal were a couple that were really good to me. After a couple of days I started to max out the few items that could be made for a profit and sold quickly, so I started to look at high IPH items with low SVR that had uncompetitive markets. This consisted of me sorting by IPH in EveIPH, and manually checking the active sellers on the market in Jita (which I defined as any orders made in the last 12-24hr). If the total number of these orders was less than the average daily volume form the graph in the price history tab I would go ahead and make it. I came across the PI blog near the middle of the week, but it would take about a week for it to become a stable revenue stream. Also I did some trading, and learned of courier contracts. This stemmed from me finding that the Iteron IV had a production cost of ~1.2m but was selling at ~4m at the time, I stumbled on it being sold for ~1.4m in Lonetrek where I was based. Being savvy I bought a couple and thought I would just transport them to Jita myself before realized that ships require a lot of cargo space. At this point I learned how to issue a courier contract and set each for 400k (200k jump) I might've gotten it cheaper but I figured the margins would support this and that I could get it filled quicker. This bit of experience helped me make the dive to trading in week 3.
Thoughts: I picked manufacturing because I love tycoon games but a lot of them are dated and probably aren't complex enough for me anymore to fully enjoy. I knew of Eve and heard it had consequences for poor choices and rewards for playing smart over hard, and that that cross training was possible, meaning I wasn't locked in a class if I didn't like it. Along with a great economics system (compared to many others) and a consolidated server. When I tried it before, it didn't seem like a game you could play casually which put me off since it was in August right before classes started. But at that time I had a different play style in mind and didn't even consider viewing Eve as a tycoon game. This was also after I realized I had more fun playing the AH in D3 to get items that would've required 10x the hours in grinding (plus I have terrible luck at RNG). All in all, Eve seemed like a perfect distraction for a week until my break was over and I could always drop it if I didn't like it. I paid for the first month after about 4 days to unlock some skill books, and because it seemed like it would be worth it to give it an extra month to try to see if I could find a way to play it casually like I wanted. To keep this somewhat brief, I enjoy activities that require thought and I enjoy hobbies that are more than mindless fun and additionally I enjoy a multiplayer environment. In this first week, after spending more time browsing forums and the wiki instead of in the client, I realized that this could be exactly what I was looking for in a game and hobby.
What I did: PI/ some manufacturing at the end of the week once I had extra capital beyond what I needed for PI
Est Profits: 200m~ before infrastructure investments -> ~100m after (PI) / ~50m manufacturing
Time Spent: Learning how to reference Eve-Central's API for google docs/ customizing Invictra Atreides spreadsheet/ spending the week training up 2 alts for PI (CC 3/IC 3/ RS2)/ deciding whether I should make an Autohotkey script to spare my mouse from dying and ending up finishing the script on the day I decide the profits aren't worth the effort
Tools I used: Invictra Atreides' spreadsheet
Specifically: I did a lot of research (ie. spent a few minutes on eve uni) trying to figure out what I could make, and what was optimal. Invictra's blog ended up being the best contextual source, that I came accross. Basically I had to decide between extracting, production, or a combination of both. Production or factory worlds had the best profitability and flexibility after messing with various possibilities on IA's spreadsheet. Most extraction schemes were unprofitable in Highsec, all were too low income to bother with. For factory worlds I made a floorplan that supported 2x P1->P3, 2x P2->P4, or 12x P1/2->P2/3 with enough storage centers for a weeks supply (which I never used) on CC lvl3. Ohh, I used the spreadsheet for profitability calculations, but I would have to check it daily or twice a day since the PI markets change that fast.
Thoughts: It was less time invested than I had put into manufacturing. Since with manufacturing I worked with minimal capital and had to do multiple hauls a day. With PI on a busy day where I had to switch over production to a new product i could spend 3-4hrs, while on the days I didn't it took maybe ~1hr. On average I feel like i did about ~2-3hrs a day. Which was fine since it was my first week back in classes, but was unsustainable, additionally the income was unscalable without additional characters/time invested. What really killed me was all the clicking, and the majority of the time I spent warping to the custom offices on 12 planets across 3 characters by the end of the week. Even with Jita being next door it was a mind numbingly dull consisting of lots of clicking. I should mention it was not bad isk for me at the time (a newbie) if you consider during the week I was scaling up production so most of that ~200m was during the last 2-3days of that week. Although I think the markets have crashed for most PI goods this week to the point where it won't get you 600m/mo for a plex using factory planets in highsec (null is ludicrously profitable but a logistical nightmare). And I was coming across supply issues for industrial fibers to make my polyaramids during the last days of that week, the profits were still there but for a time there wasn't a single sell order for the fibers. I began to realize at this point that this was not sustainable for me, either I would burn out soon, or when I started to have less free time I would be hampered. Although I did laugh at the beginning at how easy the isk was to make, I thought of the planets a isk printers until the margins tanked and the market laughed back at me. I also realized that I didn't like the lack of diversity with PI, since diversity is directly related to income stability. But mainly it was the needless and endless clicking that got me to stop.
What I did: Trading of all kinds (region sell-to-buy, region sell-to-sell, hub to hub sell-to-sell, and finally station trading/hub to hub buy-to-sell)
Est Profits: Liquidated all my assets from manufacturing and PI ~350m ->~1-1.4B depending on method = ~650m-1.05B
Tools I Used: Eve-Central's Trade Tools (essential), Eve Nexus, jEveAssets, EveMentat, EFT, EveMon
Time Spent: Going through Eve's Market Discussion Forum to page 10 or so. Market Research using Eve-Central's/ Eve Market Data tools. Buying low selling high/ laughing like a madman at how easy it is. Reading mainly Full Disclosure and Greedy Goblin. Setting up one of my PI alts in one of the other trade hubs and skilling up Trade skills. 0.01 Isking for the first 4 days or so and then station trading (aka destroying markets) these last two days.
Specifically:I remembered how easy it was making a few millions off of trading the Iteron IV's during the first week, but hadn't even considered whether I could make trade profitable with the sharks out there. I was only familiar with region trading but had trouble finding items from manually searching them on eve-central. I think came across some post or blog entry some where with a link to eve-central's trade tools showing the amarr-to-jita sell to sell. I used this to find items to trade, specifically I looked for items with >100% margins and little competitors (fewer volume order updated in the last 24hr than the average daily volume). What I traded varied day to day, and relied on spending 1-2 hours sorting through the margin scams and blueprints and competitive items listed on the trade tools. EveNexus shows me a profit of ~110-125-225-245m for the four days I did this. I got tired of this when I realized 0.01 isking was like grinding the market, and wasn't really playing it that smart. Then I came across greedy goblin's post on cartels and 0.01 isking and while morally I have no qualms about a cartel in eve (real life is a different issue) I did agree that 0.01 isking was tedious and unsustainable. But if we were to argue the purpose of trading which is to smooth out the bumps between supply and demand across time and markets in the most efficient way possible then 0.01 isking is akin to an exploit on consumers(disc for another time). But back to more relevant info, the items I ended up trading tended to have relatively low but constant demand 10-200 volume per day(not my requirement but observation), this was for hub to hub sell-to-sell 0.01 isking with >100% to make sure there was room for me to profit before the margins crashed. I then moved onto station trading which consists of basically forcing out all the 0.01 iskers by slashing margins until you own the market, greedy goblin goes into detail in his blog. But it is kind of like market PvP with the end result winning the market for an item producing a reliable income stream (for a limited time) until another station trader finds that market to try to force you out. My profits from station trading were ~160-150 for the past two days. Not as lucrative as the hub-to-hub, but considering I've spent only 15-30m/day updating orders these last two days compared to the 1-2hday for market research and hauling I did for hub-to-hub; it's not so bad. Right now I'm limited by my max orders which will take a few weeks now before they get upped on both my characters. I'm currently trading in Amarr and Jita, although I think the other hubs were more profitable from my initial market research.
Thoughts: So in 3 weeks I made a nice progression from manufacturing to station trading. I'm not sure what I'll try next, but my main objective atm is maximizing isk/time(effort). I want to look into mission hubs or creating markets at stations on the low/null border, or I can find out what missionepvp items are actively being used and destroyed in certain regions and place orders there. I can look into POS/ T2 inventing and manufacturing but I think trading would still have better isk/time(effort) ratio. This would require more knowledge of the game/actual in-game socializing/time I might not have in the next few weeks. So my immediate goals are to get standings to reduce my broker fees/ max out accounting then train for a Providence and pretend I'm a slave trader in Star Wars and form a corp to reenact Star Wars VI with one guy in a ship like a Merlin (don't know many ships yet) that's renamed "Boba Fett's awesome bounty hunter frigate" and another ship named "Harrison Ford's unscathable movie career" and I'll have 1 elite slave in my hull with my Providence named "Jabba's Flying Space Palace". I know I'm still new but I'm having a blast right now and thought I'd share it since I don't know how long I'll be playing (if I stop, probably won't be from burn out since I'm taking steps to prevent that but from RL priorities).
Although I have nowhere near enough experience to really give advice. I do want to say, I wouldn't have gotten this much if I didn't take any risks. Every time I switched professions I pretty much went all in. Yes, I did do risk analysis and tried to diversify or hedge my bets (ie. figure out how much money I can get back if it completely fails and decide if it's enough to try other things). But there's a smart way to do that, with manufacturing I built only what I knew I could sell and sold a lot different products instead of selling a few with high margins (that might crash). With PI, I produced stuff in 12hr cycles and tried to produce multiple items (ultimately I only did 2 different ones at a time for ease of stocking and change overs). With trading I maxed out my orders that first day and never expected to win 0.01isk wars all day long so I bought the percentage of daily volume that equaled the percentage of the day that I though I would win the 0.01isk wars. For station trading I just stayed diversified. I think that's one think that's common across all areas of Eve, if you take smart risks and put more effort in than your competitors you will assure yourself success. (edit) Disclaimer to travelling/testing out trade I hit max character limit. TL;DR: If you're reading this, Eve probably isn't the game for you. I'll stick around for any comments, and I might fall asleep soon but I'll check back in the morning.
PSA: Newbies, Protected Systems and Tips to Stay Safe in Eve.
Ive spent a bit of time in starter systems and career agent systems in the last month or so. Ive seen criminals, suspects, and wrecks on stations and gates. Newbies, you are not allowed to be ganked or baited in rookie systems that are on this list If you are being harassed or you are killed by a player in these systems, report that person using the support system so action can be taken against them. How to stay safe:
Dont autopilot. Its a bad a habit to get into.
Dont carry high value loot in industrials and other squishy ships. You are better off using a heavily tanked combat ship or one that is fit for fast aligns( inertia stabilizers in your lows).
Tank your ships. Mining ships should always have tank in the mids. You dont need a survey scanner to mine. There was a gank attempt on my newbie alt in a .8 system recently. I had two medium shield extenders fitted to a venture. The ganker failed and died horribly to Concord.
In Jita make an "instant undock" bookmark. To do this you get in a frigate equipped with an MWD( micro warp drive). You click undock. As soon as you are able turn your MWD on and let your ship continue in the same direction it was pointed in on undock. When you get at least 200 KM past the dock( this will take a couple of minutes in a frigate) or more hit control +B this opens the bookmark popup. Name the bookmark insta undock and click submit. Next time you undock instead of warping to a gate , select the bookmark by right clicking in space and warp to it. You will warp instantly to your bookmark then you can continue your journey from there. You can do this at any structure you can dock at.
At no time do you need to move PLEXes Skill Injectors, Skill Extractors, or Skill Books for your own personal use. PLEXes and Skill Injectors can be used remotely by locating them in your "Personal Assets" on the left sidebar menu. I am not for sure about extractors, but you should bring the character to the extractor and that extractor should be where you want to use or sell the injector. Skill Books can be injected whether you have the ability to train the skill or not.
Consider anything advertised in Local anywhere to be a scam. There are very few exceptions to this. At this point in your Eve career you dont need to be concerned with the exceptions.
Contract and Market Scams. On the market scammers will put items up for more than they are worth. They usually add one or two zeros to the item so instead of 2 million you pay 20 mil or 200 mil. You should always sort sell orders by price with lowest price at top and then manually scroll down to you reach one at your location. Contract scams have a few methods. You can avoid these scams by doing the following:
When using contracts to obtain items, use the contract search in game.
If there is a "sense of urgency" its almost definitely a scam.
Always check what you are getting. The contract will list ALL items even ones in containers.
Always check the buyer and the sellers price to make sure its acceptable.
ALWAYS check the location to make sure its in a location that is acceptable to you. Dont assume because its in highsec you can get to it without going through low sec.
Take your time when reviewing a contract. There is no need to rush, if there is its probably a scam contract.
Baiters. Baiters are people who try to bait you into a situation in which they can legally shoot you or to get you to illegally shoot them. Some of the methods used:
Salvaging your wrecks. This is perfectly legal. Anyone is allowed to salvage your wrecks. While this may be annoying, you should just ignore it.
Can/Wreck flipping. A baiter will take stuff out of your can or a wreck you own to get a suspect tag. When you try to engage them, they warp off and return quickly with a pvp ship and legally kill you. Ignore people with suspect timers.
Gifting. A baiter will drop a can and tell you something semi valuable is in it and that you can have it. It will be a yellow can. When you loot it, you go suspect and they shoot you. This one isnt super common.
MTUs. Other players are allowed to kill your MTUs without Concord intervention.
Can/Wreck colors: White belongs to your corp/alliance. You can loot these, though your mates may not be happy about it. Blue means abandoned. Anyone can loot these without going suspect. Yellow means they belong to someone else. If you loot these its considered stealing and you will go suspect and can be shot. You may salvage any wreck of any color without going suspect. If the wreck has items in it, it will drop these in a can when you have salvaged. You are NOT allowed to loot the can. Everything you are allowed to take salvaging was automatically placed in your cargohold when you were successful at salvaging the wreck.
Concord is there to punish not protect. They are a disciplinary force not a bodyguard.
System Security and you!
High sec: High sec systems are 0.5 to 1.0. These systems have Concord ships and multiple gun batteries at stations and gates( not citadels but you have 10KM tether range at a citadel that makes you invulnerable. You can still be bumped and pushed out of tether range so dont AFK while tethered for a long period). Response times for Concord range from a few seconds in 1.0 to over 20 seconds in 0.5
Low sec: Low sec is 0.1 to 0.4. Low sec has no Concord presence. Stations and gates have defense guns. These can be tanked with the proper ship/fit.
Null sec: Null is any space of 0.0 or below. There are no protections here. Bubbles may be anchored to stop intruders. If its not NPC null sec, you probably wont be able to dock at any stations( providence would be an exception). This space is completely controlled by player ran alliances and corporations.
Wormhole space: AKA: Wspace, Jspace. This is the same as null with two exceptions. The first is their are no gates. So make sure you BM how you got in the system. The second is local only shows people who talked. Most people in Wspace do not ever talk in local. And people who hunt there will be cloaked most of the time. Never assume you are alone in wspace.
Standings: Standings give people colored tags on their portrait. Blue green and purple standings are friendly standings( unless someone is being an ass.) Red, Orange, Grey, or no standings are neutral or dangerous. Outside of high sec assume players with these standings want to shoot you.
CODE. CODE.( yes the dot matters) is a high sec griefing alliance. They get away with griefing because they try to sell you "mining permits" and will shoot you if you dont buy one( supposedly). Dont buy mining permits. Set them to red( people and places on left sidebar then use the search function to find their alliance) and avoid them. Also tank your ships.
Low/null is scary and dangerous dont go there! This is what many high sec residents will tell you, despite that most of them have never been outside of high sec or have been only briefly. Sovereignty Null is actually safer than high sec most of the time as you know who your friends and enemies are and usually get a lot of warning time before hostiles enter your system.
Death, PVP, and you: In Eve you consent to pvp when you undock. PVP is a normal and major part of gameplay. Your ship is a tool. It is meant to be used as a tool to accomplish tasks. Dont get attached to it. Death is a normal part of play. Dying should be a learning experience not a rage quit experience. Never fly what you cannot afford to replace or do without.
Learn game mechanics: Eve requires you to put some effort into it. Learning game mechanics will make your eve experience much easier and much more pleasant. 99% of deaths while doing PVE activities are avoidable( this includes low and null activities). When you die learn what you could of done differently to lessen your chances of being caught/dying. A decent PVPer who has killed you will often offer you tips if you pm them and are nice to them. If you rage and call them names and threaten them, they will do nothing but laugh at you.
Edit: formatting also adding the following;
The reason you want insta warp on undocks in trade systems( as well as dangerous systems) is you dont want to give people a chance to gank/kill you while aligning after you undock. The undock is often not pointed in the right direction and you undock at full speed. So it takes longer to align to something not in front of your ship. This makes you vulnerable on undocks for a longer period of time.
Even fast align ships should have tanks in the mids when used for hauling loot. Gankers determine if a ship is worth ganking by the value of your loot VS the value of the ships required to kill it. If you are moving a lot of high value items, split into multiple loads to lower the value. It takes longer but will significantly reduce your risk. Even splitting your load in half will reduce your risk of a gank by a good margin.
PLEXes Injectors and to a lesser extent Extractors make you a high value target regardless of what you are flying. They should never enter the cargohold of a ship.
Research Everything. Eve is the one game that studying for pays off. You can just wing it but its going to be quite a bit more expensive. Read in game descriptions of things. Learn to Google. There are tons of youtube videos, guides, sites on everything eve. We put the knowledge out there for you. Eve Uni Wiki is a good source of general knowledge for newbies and their are many sites that are dedicated to specific areas of Eve. Use them.
Dont be afraid to ask for help. In game you have rookie help for the first 30 days as well as a general help channel( use the channels button on your sidebar then go down to help). You can ask on the eve forums or in reddit. Most vets are helpful to new players because we have been there and most of us want you to hang around.
WARDECS: What is a wardec? A wardec( war declaration) is basically a "permit" that allows one corporation/ alliance to attack another corporation/alliance anywhere in eve without the interference of Concord/ defensive guns/etc. Only player ran corporations and alliances can be wardec. You are immune to wardecs in NPC corps. Wardeccers are usually high sec corps or alliances looking for easy prey. Basically they do a legal form of ganking. They often wardec multi entities at once and then wait at trade hubs or in high sec pipelines for prey. If they are outnumbered or dont think they can win they will hide in a dock until you go away. If you join a null alliance, you will be wardecced pretty much constantly. Wardecs only matter in highsec. Everywhere else they are irrelevant. It is something to take into consideration when joining a null alliance. Most null residents will have a high sec alt in a NPC corp that is used to tend to their high sec affairs such as shopping and hauling. If you join a null alliance i highly recommend you do the same. You should not attempt to mine/mission/haul stuff in highsec while wardecced. If you do these tasks while decced you should use extreme caution. If you are in a null alliance, there really is no reason to be doing PVE in highsec. Your alliances systems offer much higher paying PVE opportunities than anything you can do in high sec.
To preface: I am by no means a Titan of Industry in EVE Online, or even a relevant player in my own region I imagine. I have, however, found my niche as an industrialist in this grand sea of space dust we traverse everyday that I thoroughly enjoy. I am writing this not as a guide to industry considering there are hundreds of guides one can Google (although most are horrendously outdated). This is merely a conversation starter meant to help newer players and older players like me with things we've figured out and some tips that might be useful. First created my industrial character as an alt to my original combat focused one back in 2011. Since then, my industrial character has become the apple of my eye where my "dog fighter" has morphed into an utilitarian, Swiss Army knife type pilot. In the six years since his inception, my industrialist has evolved from a miner to a well-oiled sub/capital shipwright. There have been a lot of bumps along the way and I've made more mistakes than most I'm sure. Here are some things that I've learned: GO BIG OR GO HOME Honestly, don't start off small like with ammo and shit. It's a waste of time and not only will you not make any money, you will.....well you just won't be making any money. shrugs Start off big. By big, I mean BPO price. Not necessarily item price. BPOs are investments that increase in value the more it is researched. Don't worry. You aren't tied to this asset forever. You can indeed sell it later if you want and get a decent return depending on what it is. My first BPO was Capital Construction Parts which cost me over a billion isk. It took me some time to mine all that trit and sell it to buy it. But when I did buy it, it was a milestone for me. Since then I have like 40b in researched BPOs. It all starts with one investment tho. If you can't afford a BPO first, look in contracts for BPCs of items that you think will net you a profit at a decent time invested. You don't wanna build something that is going to sit on the market for a week with your money all tied into it. Just remember BPCs cost money every time you want to make something so that cuts into your already slim profits. Which leads me into my next suggestion: LESS IS MORE: FIND YOUR NICHE This took me a while to learn, honestly. I have virtually every BPO just under Capital-sized shit there is. And I used to make it all. I mean everything. Ya, don't do that. What may seem like will make a huge profit when you calculate on Fuzzyworks probably won't translate when it hits the market. Research the hub you want to stick ya shit in and look at how many times it sells a day/week. If it sells and you'll make a decent amount of isk off it, go for it. But keep your manufacturing list short because nothing is more annoying than .01 isking 273+ orders every couple hours. I've went from seeding FW hubs with frigates to seeding mission runners with Ammo (t2 and faction). It's time consuming and annoying. It's not bad to start off with but everybody has the same idea so you won't see much profit. To harp on the point of finding your niche, that not only includes the product but the market. There's nothing wrong with waiting a couple days to sell something; but if you are like most, you want your isk and you want it now. I urge you to be patient and find a market that is lacking the items you produce and seed there. Can be anywhere, but by all means STAY OUTTA JITA IF YOU CAN Like Wal-Mart, Jita is a necessary evil. It's great if you want to buy materials that you either cannot find in your home market or are so expensive it completely tanks your profits. For me, this usually means T2 mats which I eat up in a sizable amount. So I make my trek to Jita in my Cloaky Prowler to pick up as many rig and ship components I can fit. I'm used to it so 30 jumps doesn't bother me. To sell in Jita is a totally different story. A few things I hate when it comes to selling in Jita:
Getting your shit there can be a perilous ordeal esp in a freighter
The margins are so slim, it's pointless unless you station trade
Having to .01 isk there will drive you insane
Local is as toxic with the scamming so keep your blinders on
I say all that to stress unless you are looking for super high turnover in your products to funnel it into other activities or investing it back into your industrial endeavors quickly, you're better off looking at the other 4-5 main hubs. Even Amarr is better in terms of profiting albeit a little slower than Jita. Again, don't be afraid of a little market research. You don't exactly need spreadsheets as there are several programs you can use on your computer and your smartphone to help you determine what's profitable where BUT spreadsheets are helpful. Also, it doesn't hurt to ask around for opportunities in the various channels in chat. You'll never know what contracts you can find manufacturing for a corp or an alliance that needs certain number of modules, ships, rigs etc weekly which YOU the burgeoning industrialist can provide. Which brings me to my last and final tip: DON'T BE AFRAID TO MAKE FRIENDS Most industrialists spend their entire life in high security space aka hi-sec. Before somewhat recent changes in mining and industry as well as the advent of citadels, it really made no sense to do industry outside of hi-sec or even in a corporation. Solo corps don't count obv. Now tho, there is real value in life outside hi-sec. Sure some industrialists in the past have found favor with the larger null-sec alliances in EVE by creating capital ships and jump freighters. It was still a very small percentage of people that did that as it was a lot harder to get the amount of minerals needed down to null. With the previous changes to mineral allotment to null ore and now the Mack Daddy of All Ore Suckers - the Rorqual basically mowing down any rock, you can get all the minerals you'll ever need. With the citadel and EG Complexes, you no longer need a POS (player-owned starbase). Well, in hi sec you do. Btw its imperative you set up a POS for research and manufacturing as NPC stations 10% tax will eat your profits up over time. Took me a while to learn this. Back to my point, you can join an indy corp or an alliance and use their Azbel/Soitoyo to research, manufacture and invent anything you could possibly want. Without having to worry about fuel, wardecs, corp treason with BPOs, etc. And you'll have a market there for you if you just wanna sell to your alliance. I haven't made the move yet but eventually I know I will with the removal of POS looming in the future. Even without null, it still doesn't hurt to have other industrialist friends that can provide a service for you. Copying for example. If you can get BPCs on shit for cheaper than in contract search, you'll be making a lot more money than you would otherwise. Same with invention. And even just for solidarity or advice although a lot of people won't tell you what to make as to not have you invade their margins (Im not one of those guys) T2 AND T3 ARE BAD, MMKAY Seriously. Don't bother unless you got decent amount of liquid isk to invest in JFs. JF Production is the highest industry available in Hi Sec that requires several different characters for it to be efficient and profitable. First you gotta get moon goo and make the components then create the components from that into the Capital t2 Components.Just a lot of work that isn't really feasible for beginners. Don't get me started on T3 Cruisers. I lived in a WH for about six months and that shit required so much work omg. I'm not sure the Isk p/h on the newer T3 Destroyers i.e. Svipuls and shit but I imagine the margins are slim, too. The margins for most t2 products just aren't there unless you really corner your market. Most people will begin doing t2 ammo which are in the dumps but you can actually charge a little more if you seed to FW markets around New Eden i.e. Filet in Gallente FW Space and of course Dal/Amamake in Minnie space. What I used to do when I first started was fit some t1 frigates with t2 modules I made and fly them down to Amamake and sell them via contract. A lot of people just like to reship when they lose one and will pay a lil premium with a ship already to go. So look into that if you really wanna do T2. There is, however, one type of t2 product that sells well EVERYWHERE and quickly. You gotta do some research and figure that out though. There are tons of other tips for indy work but I'm honestly tired of typing so perhaps I'll continue to update if this even garners any replies. These just a few things I learned along the way as an industrialist that I wanted to share in hopes of helping someone who just starting out or an old dog who wants to learn some new tricks. Edit: I've decided to add more as I think of things and if I see some good tips in comments I'll add onto the OG post with them as well. Fly safe.
YSK: About this common scam we run in Other Games (o7 guys!) that has now infected your game.
(The last rule says OSRS content only so I want to be clear that I'm reporting something that people are doing in your game but I thought it was relevant to bring up that it happens in other games on purpose because you're into cutthroat MMOs like that. It's called a Trade Margin scam. In your game it's illegal and it should be. In our game it's considered emergent gameplay and the admins don't give you your stuff back just because you fell for a scam so you learn how to avoid them.) I'd just like to say to anyone who reads this that I am not promoting scamming in Runescape and that while this explanation of the scam will teach you how to perform it, it's one hundred percent traceable and you will get found. As more people have better understanding of how it works and report you it will come to Jagex's attention much sooner and something they've been quite clear about dealing with it's anything that even hints at scamming or RMT. Therefore while some might want me to hold back some of the details and point out only a few things I think that this scam is so easily detectable that we're simply having the dumbest lemmings jump off the cliff if they think that listening to a reddit post about scamming is their ticket to Runescape millions. "Buying OBSCUREITEM for this price above the limit. I need a billion of these and I've just hit the limit!" So it's a random ass item and you don't have one because who the hell has one of these things. You look on the GE and you notice that, gee willikers batman, wouldn't you know it, there just so happens to be some on the market for a significant amount less than the advertisement. So you buy as many as you can thinking you've found yourself a gold mine and quickly you find that you've run completely out of the item on the GE or you've run out of money. You go to trade the guy and you can't find him! Oh well, I guess you'll just turn and sell it on the market. But wait? Nobody will buy this item for near to what you bought it for? So this is an interesting scam that is ran fairly commonly in Eve Online and we use it with Officer Modules typically because they're purple and shiny and most of them are literally more expensive than most players will ever see at one time. In other words, typical idiot bait. Turns out some of those purple items are actually worthless as well as incredibly rare so nobody bothers to ever buy or sell them because they're pointless and worthless. So one guy can buy the six "Shiny Captain Hat of Ultimate Excellence" that gives you a whopping -3 to "Common Sense" or whatever it does and they can then begin their scam. What's actually worse is that you guys can't really check your buy price and your sell price at the same time. You have to check one, and then the other. Ours has both literally on the same screen. What this means is that your scammers only have to manipulate one price at a time if they're being lazy and you guys have a LOT less tools to detect scammers such as an easy to access price history or visual graphs. Once the item is bought completely afrom the market they're free to manipulate its price freely. Depending on how much thought they're putting into this, they can even turn the item's average daily price against itself by repeatedly putting the item up for sale and buying it across multiple accounts at this increased price (Also a common RMT trick) over several days so the item's reported API goes up to whatever price they want. If your game's market is looking for stuff like that it might automatically ignore certain behaviors but the problem with any automated system is that it will eventually be gamed. Maybe the system ignores anything under five transactions per day. Maybe it doesn't ignore it but the price won't be reflected until it's repeated a certain number of times. You get my point. Once they have the freedom to freely set the price to whatever they want it's simple enough to set it at something ridiculously high, spam that you're buying the item at a ridiculously higher number, and then once your item sells, simply log off or ignore them and refuse to buy the item for various reasons. If you buy something that's low volume enough AND low price enough you could probably make a profit if you even sell a single one of these items but the real draw is both the deniability and repeatability of this scam. Because the system automatically tells the scammer the moment they've sold one of their items, they're free to log out the instant they get the notification and then their victim literally has no idea they've been duped. If they're particularly intrepid they might scroll up and save your name but in fact them contacting you again PROVES they don't know they've been scammed and sets them up for a second scam. "Sorry man, I'd love to buy those from you but I already have a friend who got me those. Buuuut, if you could actually get me some of THIS item that I totally didn't just set on the market that'd be great. Also, isn't it fantastic that the block button means you have no idea that I haven't logged out forever?" Anyways. Jita Local is nothing but lies and scams. The more sure you are that it isn't the scam, the better the scam is. No exceptions. I'm not sure that Runescape is quite as welcoming or friendly towards this kind of culture but I also think that this has left you guys pretty vulnerable to these kinds of scams.
Wall o' text, just thought I'd share an interesting story of what just happened :) I don't care much for scams so this made me smile It's something I've been wondering about for a while and have now confirmed :) If you're unfamiliar with the margin trading scam it involves buying up a particular item in a market hub and then putting up multiple stupidly high sell orders. You then put up a buy order for X minimum units (more than you have in any of the sell orders). The buy price is HIGHER than the sell price but the units do not get sold as they don't reach the minimum quantity. The scam works out as -> player sees buys higher than sell for this item. Decides to buy out all the really expensive items off the scammer and resell to the high buy order to make quick isk. Player buys enough of the sell orders to complete the buy order but when the other items are sold the trade falls though due to the margin trading trick. A player with the margin trading skill only has to put as little as 24% of their isk towards the buy order upfront, the rest is taken when the buy order completes. However, if when the buy order completes and the player does not have enough isk to back up the buy order, it falls through, thus, creating a 'false' buy order in the market. So I was checking my asset values on jEveAssets and was surprised that it had shot up 1B overnight. I found the offender was a very high price for 'Central System Controller' an ancient salvaged material. I checked the price in Amarr and sure enough, someone was doing a margin trading scam with them. http://imgur.com/PWXoR Understanding how this worked, and knowing that the seller must have put at least 24% of the isk value in the buy order, I decided to sell him the ones he wanted, at under 23% of the value, hoping it wouldn't fall through. http://imgur.com/p3yHM And it didn't, free isk for me http://imgur.com/Q4c6x I sold 50 units for 900k each when they're really about 6k each. I guess he skipped over the scamming manual where it said 'do it with items that people don't usually have' TL:DR Scammer got what was coming to him EDIT: Spelling
My Experiences as a New Player using Eve as a Sim Tycoon Game pt 3 [finally PLEX'd]
Alright so it's been a couple of weeks since my last post. I thought I'd update those interested and cite my old posts (pt1pt2trade theory) for those new after Asakai. Though I'm only a few weeks more experienced than the lot of them. So today I finally PLEX'd. I set up another account earlier this week, so that I can start training him for PvP, exploration, or w.e I might fancy in the future. So far my idea was to train for a tengu and dual box ninja WH exploration, but I'll detail my thoughts on that more below. Now I actually had a snafu trying to PLEX. Turns out you can't accept contracts on trial accounts. So after I thought I'd be sneaky and save on broker fees with my main; I had to relist, send the isk to my alt, and rebuy. Since I bought from a buy order and resold at the ask price, I only lost probably around a mil in the process. But enough blogging, let's start with the numbers you're interested in. Before PLEXing, jEveAssets listed my NAV at a cool 3.6B early in the day and 3.3B right before plexing. My real networth is somewhere in the middle since I speculate it has trouble pinning down my exact NAV since the buy/sell orders, escrow, assets and balance are in a constant state of flux due to trading. So that's about 3.45B after 6 weeks of play. Not to bad, if you'll excuse my ego. jEveAssets1jEveAssets2EveNexus A recap for those who haven't been following: Complete Newbie (starting at 5k isk) -> Week 1 [manufacturing] -> Week 2 [PI] -> Week 3 [InterHub/Station Trading] -> Week 4-6 [progressively more efficient Station Trading] -> ~3.45B isk -> PLEX -> ~2.9B Standard Format: Week 5-6
What I did: Station Trading/ PI (just restarted this one today)
Est Profits: beginning ~75m -> ~125m daily by the latter half of week 6
Time Spent: Updating Orders ~1.5x day for Amarr alt, 1.5-3x day for Jita alt; forcing out .01iskers on products that were too competitive; trying out .01isking efficacy again on select products; messing around with exploration and running PI/manufacturing profitability numbers again; Ohh also a few hours here and there getting some faction standings for Caldari Navy (current: Brokers 0.54%, Sales Tax 0.9%)
Tools I used: Again standard Trading tool complement ( jEveAssets, EveNexus, EveMentat, EveMon, Eve-central.com) Mainly the Market Browser + testing product markets will small orders at first
First of all I started being a lot more aggressive in my buying strategy, mainly buying more than I felt comfortable selling in a day whenever I felt prices were low. Typically buy prices will swing with trader activity, so unless you want to sit there all day checking your orders, it's best to set a big order before you sleep and once in the morning when player count is low <30k. At least I had the most luck when I did that. Also a nice update in the middle of the day helps as well. Of course this only works for items that experience trade imbalances and have variable pricing throughout the day. Secondly, by being more aggressive on these items and learning their markets better; I was able to set my ask price extremely competitively which drives out 0.01iskers plenty quick. I wanted to work on my standings to get my tax rate a good margin below 3%, which is my usual benchmark for whether I'll actively trade an item. Atm it's 1.98% (2x0.54% + 0.9%) to set up the buy/sell orders and then the final sales tax. This allowed me to stay in products I wanted to so that I wouldn't have to jump around looking for items with good margins, and force 0.01iskers out by making it relatively unprofitable compared to other products. This ofc works best with items of decent volume. Although, if you have time to update more frequently than me or you're willing to alternate between sets of products for your slots, then this strategy will not be the most optimal for your profits and reinvestment rate. I tried 0.01isking again on a few products just for comparison. And it does have a spot for maximizing profit, under certain conditions: high margin, few competitors, low volume. If the product only has high margin, expect to camp the product a bit to maximize profit; I tried this on some products when I had time to kill and it adds a nice boost. When there's little competitors, there's a chance they'll just follow whatever number you put up. You can close the margin and force them into inactivity but then they might leave large orders up under yours forcing you into a minimum margin game. If the volume is high this isn't that much of a problem since you'll still be making decent isk, but if it's low you might be able to make more money by looking at their update times and if it's infrequent and then update at intervals which would keep your order on top more often. Other than these conditions, I've found it to be less stressful to just slash the margins, or strategically time my orders to get filled at the lowest buy price/highest sell price of the day or week. The profits won't be as lucrative but they are hell of a lot more consistent. Margin Trading is the best skill ever (even when not used for scamming). I've always held too high of a balance to try the margin trading scam, and it would disrupt my station trading. But once I had that skill trained, it allowed me to leverage more than twice my current capital overnight (after getting it to level 3). My daily profits went from treading around ~100m to >115m with much less stress/micromanagement of orders. I would simply just throw orders up, specifically the orders I made were a low volume buy order (to be set competitively) and a large stationary buy order at a trough price. This allowed me more capital to place in my orders to give me a better chance at buying low. Wholesale is awesome. Having over 100 orders helps a lot, it gave me a lot more maneuverability on the market. I restarted PI, because after reviewing the numbers some of the P4 products could net me ~15m a day per planet. The caveat being if I can secure the mats through buy orders and sell them at the ask price. A few weeks ago I didn't have the capital for this kind of investment strategy, but now it could be a nice low maintenance income source. I'm only doing it on one planet for now, since it still is kinda tedious hauling and messing with expedited transfers. Even with 80k/hr links the timer is 5m. Also, it's just fun making stuff. I also trained Mass Production to 4, so that I could train Supply Chain management and have some fun manufacturing again. But T1 income is just soo pitiful compared to my trading, I have better margins on more than half my trading products. It just doesn't seem worth it compared to my current income. Additionally, most of the products that would be worth it to trade are pretty competitive. Before I continue on to my future plans/other thoughts, I would encourage anyone interested to try out trading. I won't say it's for everyone, but for those with the stomach it requires a bit of thinking and comfort with the fact that you get no real advantages from having an extended track record of trading (it will always require you to be aware of a changing market). In general though, it has extremely high initial time/mental investment which progresses to minimal time investment and moderate mental investment. I'd be happy to respond to any questions to try to de-mystify how to make tons of isk with little effort through trading, since it really isn't that hard if you're willing to put in the effort.
So for fun I've been messing around with exploration in my dinky Heron. Which is pretty damn fun when I can find the sites. To skip past a few mundane stories, I eventually tried to take on some sleepers in a WH radar site. I didn't last 2 seconds. But then I thought it'd be cool to ninja sites since I was able to scan down a few sites in a few different WHs for the fun of it. But my current character is tied up with trade skills, I then ran the numbers and it turns out I should have enough to support two accounts. So for the long term, after I get Destroyers V and Battlecruisers V, I'll train up my alt for a tengu which should be ready by summer when I'll have more time to goof off. Then I can have adventures unknown into various wormholes. Eventually maybe even make one my own private retreat, set up a POS, and some POCOs (make mad isk from 0% tax PI). Then ultimately, traveling from wormhole to wormhole in my future Providence taunting the natives and their outlandish morals to incite them to free the slaves from my hull; all the while just being bait for my tengu to sweep in for the kill. Then laughing off the few bill in lost ships and modules when I ultimately screw up and get podded. But not without making some kind of quip about the slaves finally being freed but not in the way they had hoped. TL;DR Make mad isk, buy awesome ships but shitty modules so that the killers don't get crap; find creative ways to destroy my wealth in the most hilarious ways possible.... Profit!!! LOSS (hell ya!) Edit: Sorry tried to clean up some of the grammar, but I'm tired. Also, can I still consider myself a new play at this point? I still have much that I don't know but I feel like I'm starting to get approximate basic knowledge of the rest of the game through trading. Also, market pvp is best pvp. Okay, I'll go to sleep now.
If Eve is tough then I must have been really resilient or really stupid, you decide.
My first month was complete shit. And when I say shit, I had the worst fucking luck ever or I was completely naive. So it began, I initially purchased the game off a steam sale for like 5$ and figured to give a shot. I needed isk and having read, I found out that plex is easy cash to isk exchange. So I went ahead and purchased 2 plexes. Well soon I realized I couldn't sell the plex's because I didn't have enough isk to even put up the sell order. After a few google searches, I found that I can use contracts to sell my plex. Unknowingly the mechanics of contracts, I figured I would have to in same system for the person to accept the contract. Immediately I set my destination to Jita where this person was buying the plex. Eager yet ignorant to the eve lifestyle, I set auto pilot on (highsec only) and went off to important stuff I had to do like taking a dump. Soon there after, I come back and my sweet starter pack Sarum magnate was gone and I'm in a pod floating in the middle of space with no one around. I was suicide ganked by a solo guy in a thrasher. Gametime: 30 minutes into playing https://zkillboard.com/kill/31984400/ Pissed as fuck, I call it a day but still extremely intrigued about the mass complexity of the sandbox they call 'New Eden.' I get up the next day and find myself still wanting to find out what's it's all about. So I suck it up and buy 2 more plex's, do it right and make my 1 billion isk. Now I have a billion isk, less than 100,000 skill points and my pockets were burning so I immediately look into getting a battleship, because, it's a God damn battleship. I look and shop and find that the coolest looking one. Bingo! The megathron.. that sexy mother fucker. So I start training for the gallente battleship lvl 1, large rail guns lvl 1, and mechanics lvl 3 to be able to sit inside the most top rated Battleclinic fit. So I post pone playing a week till I finally can get into THE ultimate Battleclinic fit. A week passes and I finally can seat myself into one. Me being so hyped up, I wanted to kill someone. A few google searches later I find out that the only way to pvp is to head to lowsec or 0.0. So I'm off, blindly jumping into lowsec running and sure enough was ganked. Gametime: Week 1 https://zkillboard.com/kill/32355952/ Pissed as fuck, I lick my wounds and said fuck that, I'm gonna go again and kill these assholes with my super mega plated megathron that was #2 choice on Battleclinic's fit. Headed back with a vengeance, I was determined to find these fuckers. Sure enough, nowhere to be found. I jumped 1 more gate and boom. Gametime: Week 1 and 45 minutes https://zkillboard.com/kill/32356853/ Prodded back to my home station, I sit there pissed that I was just shat on inside my sextuple plated mega but it's ok because I still had 3 more fully fitted megathrons. Then randomly I get a convo, a convo from the guy that just killed me. Hesitantly I accept it. Something to the affect of join the Goons do this, do that, we have fun, we teach new guys. So I'm hooked, I tell him hell yeah and before I attempt to join he offered to move my stuff, so I agree and hand over my 3 mega's and then asked for the security deposit. I buy more plex and sell it and hand over 500 million isk. Promised that I will be accepted, I sat there waiting an entire month and nothing. Not even knowing I was scammed I moved on and hopefully one day they will come to my application. So with more isk in my pocket and not knowing what the hell is going on, I get interested into station trading. So a forum post I read said the more initial investment, the greater the return. I so look around and read a few things on what to start trading. Then I come across a buy order of some rare item that has a super high buy order of 10,000,000 isk per unit, so I buy 1 unit and try to sell it, but it won't let me. I look and I'm wondering what the hell is going on. Then I realize, there a minimum number of units I need to have before I can sell it. So buy alllll the product in station and... Game time: 4 and 1/2 'Buy order not found.' My heart sinks and I just realized I spent 1 billion isk. I was just margin scammed. I give it a week off then I find myself thinking, if I was so dumb to this game when I first started and the game was so damn daunting, I know sure hell that others are just as ignorant to how complicated this game is too. So I pick up my pieces, patch up what I have left and really take a deep look into this game called EVE. I study all what this game provides and use it as a tool against others. I start dueling in highsec with frigates to learn pvp. But I'm not just dueling anyone, I'm dueling everyone that has just as much or less playtime as me via employment history. I start racking up kills, I began to find a trend that newer the player yet the bigger the ship equals less experience with it therefore easier targets. Weeks pass and then I'm introduced to killboards as another game mechanic. So on my off time at work I look up battleship losses and research the players to lose them and see their age in game. Start pinpointing the noobs, I'll convo them and ask to duel them. I continue this trend till I realize, why not duel them but bring them into lowsec and gank them. So I began, I convince these noobs like the goon convinced me to come to lowsec and tell them about how 'amazing' it is in here. They begin to come and 1 by 1 I pick them off by squad warping them to the sun to gank them. Soon after I get greedy and start recruit scamming, and not only after I receive assets and isk, I bring them into lowsec to be my 'security combat pilot' and gank their battleship for the icing on top. All this I'm trying to say is that if this game is 'hard' or people are 'mean' or what have you, know that you can always use it to your own good. This game can be tough but being tougher is how you keep moving forward. I'm tired of people bitching of being scammed or people crying to CCP because a player rage quit the game due to being fucked over. Grow a pair and actually enjoy this game for what it's worth. Sorry if shit is misspelled, typed this all out on my phone.
Margin trading - The skill. Allows you to place buy orders larger than you have Isk to cover. Down to 25% of the Order value. Some setting up first, you need a place that has no Isk or somewhere you can throw Isk for safe keeping., an Alt, alt Corp wallet, empty wallet division, anything really. Furthermore if your trying to avoid margin trading scams, if an order fails due to the buyers account, why not have the sale fail, cancel on the buyers side, and cancel the margin order. That’s literally how the margin scam works. Your proposal is exactly how it works. You set up a buy order for something at 5b isk. eve-central, and contributastic are made of win. If it were an honest margin trade mistake, which I've made a few times, then the price will normal. As others have said, there are some variables that indicate scam, the minimum order is not a definite, but it should make the seller think twice. Like the standard margin trading scam, the point is to make you buy something overpriced. Let's wonder who put that 3 items on the market for 118M? Some hint: Of course for the scam to work, the contract must fail. For that, this particular one uses an exploit: The item Miniature slaver is bugged for some reason. The day that the 10x scam appeared in EVE was the day Jita's local chat channel became truly unsalvageable. In this scheme, the scammer announces in chat that he is giving away ISK to people who ...
【100b ISK can earn. Margin Trading scam】１００ｂ稼げる信用取引詐欺実録！【Eve online】【日本語】
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